Some History on an Old Argument

Jul 9, 2018

Editor’s Note: Today’s guest feature is submitted by Greg Moats, industry insider and someone with historical perspective.


By the time that I arrived in Quantico in the spring of 1974 I had been a fan of Jeff Cooper for years.  At the Marine Corps’ Basic School, I met a fellow Cooper devotee, Paul (44 years later we’re still close friends having attended Gunsite, John Farnam and Thunder Ranch classes together).   As Paul and I sat through our “Intro to the 1911A1” class, it became obvious to us that the Marine Corps’ best and brightest instructors were clueless about the “Modern Technique” of the pistol (a term that the Colonel hadn’t as yet codified).  The Corps taught a particularly egregious method of “teacupping” the pistol in which the support hand thumb was placed parallel with the “off hand” stock.  When we arrived on the range for our familiarization-fire exercise, the instructors walked the firing line to insure that we were observing instructed technique.  When the range officer reached Paul and I, he stopped and cocked his head like the RCA-Victor dog looking at a phonograph.  When he tried to correct our stance and grip we explained that we were using the Weaver Stance as promoted by Jeff Cooper.  We might as well have been speaking in tongues.  Mentioning that Cooper was a Marine Corps Lt. Colonel provided enough validation that he let the breach-of-Corps-technique slide.  Qualifying “Expert” in the Marine Corps with the Weaver Stance was not particularly challenging.

Today the Weaver Stance is considered by many to be “old school,” supplanted by the supposedly more modern “Isosceles Triangle” stance.  In fact the opposite is true, the Isosceles method dominated PPC competition which pre-dated IPSC by a significant time span.  However, when new shooters or PPC converts started to attend the fledgling IPSC events, they found matches were consistently won by Weaver practitioners.  This was partly due to the good ergonomics of the stance and partly due to the herd-bound nature of competitors.  Jeff, Ray, Eldon, Jack and Thell all shot that way, hence it must have had some virtue, so pretty much everybody used it.  Like the .45 ACP 1911, the forward-rake holster and eventually the beavertail grip safety, compensators and red dot optics, the Weaver Stance just sort of “caught on.” 

Despite the fact that here are pictures from the 1800’s depicting cavalrymen, cowboys and LEO’s shooting from what appears to be “textbook” Weaver Stances, Cooper gave credit for originality to Jack Weaver and the moniker, “Weaver Stance” stuck.  There’s a general assumption that Jack Weaver showed up, kicked everybody’s butt and immediately revolutionized everyone’s approach to shooting.  According to Elden Carl, the only Leatherslap that Jack won was in 1959. The next 6 were won by shooters using one hand point shooting (3 by himself and 3 by Thell Reed).  The expansion of the Leatherslap to include  scenarios requiring movement and engaging multiple targets, caused the proliferation of  the Weaver Stance.  In reality the Weaver Stance was more “trendsetting” than “innovative.” 

I’m told that it’s now been “proven” through Stress Inoculation Training that if I’m actually in an armed encounter, I’m probably going to assume an Isosceles Stance regardless of my background and training.  It’s apparently a primordial, DNA-driven response.  Maybe. 

One TV trainer-celeb goes so far as to say that the early IPSC champs succeeded with the Weaver only because of the choreographed nature of “sport” shooting.  Really?  I watch the coverage of USPSA matches on TV and am in awe of the skills being demonstrated.  I’m also amazed that there are “professional shooters” outside of military MTU’s that can make a living shooting.  I occasionally wonder how Mickey Fowler or Ross Seyfried if, in their youth, had limitless ammo, weren’t encumbered by having to make a living at a day job, shot virtually recoilless firearms with optics, would stack up against today’s young professionals.  My guess is that even handicapped with their Weaver Stance (and finger on the trigger guard too) they’d still be a force with which to be reckoned.  Perhaps I’m wrong but somehow I doubt it.

While going thru some files recently I came across a number of photos that I had taken in the late 70‘s and early 80‘s that exemplified the stance, its variation and progression back to the Isosceles Stance.

Two competitors of almost flawless technique were Mickey Fowler and Ross Seyfried.  Both, but especially Seyfried, shot with bent arms of the classic Weaver Stance. 

Mickey Fowler. Greg Moats photo.

 

Ross Seyfried. Greg Moats photo.

 

Ray Chapman had developed his own take on Weaver and straightened his strong-side arm out into a locked position.  He felt, unlike Cooper, that this helped attenuate muzzle rise.  When I asked Chapman about why he modified the original position he said that Jack was using a 6” barreled revolver with light .38’s, with very little recoil.  He felt that Government Model 1911’s with duty-equivalent ammo were better dealt with a locked elbow.  According to Ray, absorbing the recoil in the entire arm and shoulder resulted in less muzzle rise than absorbing it with only your hands and forearms. 

Here’s a young and handsome Tommy Campbell utilizing the Chapman modification with his famous S&W “Supergun.” Photo by Greg Moats.

 

I don’t believe that it’s an overstatement to say Rob Leatham and Brian Enos were the first competitors to be successful in IPSC with the Isosceles Stance.  Like Weaver, they weren’t so much innovative as trendsetting.  I was fortunate to stumble across of couple pictures of Rob in his early days.

Here a young and comparatively anorexic Leatham shoots from the Weaver Stance---notice his index finger on the front of the trigger guard. Moats photo. 

 

A year after the previous picture, Rob has altered his grip and stance to classic Isosceles without the index finger on the trigger guard.  This was 1983, the year that Rob won his first IPSC National match. Greg Moats photo. 

 

Ironically the shift to the Isosceles Stance was coincidental with the proliferation of compensators; there is a chance that those are unrelated events.

Weaver vs Isosceles discussions are at best ipecactic  -- yes, I made that word up, however if you have any experience with syrup of ipecac, you understand the appropriateness of its usage.   Apparently even Col. Cooper in his later days, repented of making an issue of the virtue of the Weaver stance as the sole manner of shooting.  My intent here is not to laud one to the detriment of the other, but simply to share a couple of historical anecdotes and show some old pictures of truly admirable competitors, that many have not previously seen.  The merits of either stance is no longer a discussion worth having.  When asked whether he used the Weaver or the Isosceles Stance, Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch replied, “I use whatever hurts least that day.”  Wise words in my opinion.

Greg Moats was one of the original IPSC Section Coordinators appointed by Jeff Cooper shortly after its inception at the Columbia Conference. In the early 1980’s, he worked briefly for Bianchi Gunleather and wrote for American Handgunner and Guns.  He served as a reserve police officer in a firearms training role and was a Marine Corps Infantry Officer in the mid-1970’s.  He claims neither snake-eater nor Serpico status but is a self-proclaimed “training junkie.”